How to FLY as a Privacy Pro and Become a 360 Leader!

In today’s episode of the PAD-CAST, I was joined by Skyscanner’s Group Privacy Officer, Gemma Witham. She will be sharing the secrets of her success when tasked with building privacy culture across uniquely challenging global businesses. Gemma’s exciting journey as a specialist privacy lawyer has seen her work with fast-growing businesses like the infamous Wonga.com and retail powerhouse Tesco. She explains how a 360 Legal, Risk and Compliance skill set has stood her in good stead and enabled her to operationalise her privacy vision, while bring senior leadership along with her on the journey.

Episode highlights include:

  • How to lead from the front and swim against the ‘privacy tide’
  • Her tips for developing privacy culture – How she gets leadership round the table
  • When is it ‘mission complete’ for a privacy leader?
  • Why it’s wise build a broad functional privacy skill set

Transcript

Anthony Brown: [00:00:02] Hello. I’m Anthony Brown, and a very warm welcome to another episode of the padcast. Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Gemma Witham. Gemma is the group privacy officer at Skyscanner. I’m sure many of our listeners will know, especially those in the UK. But Skyscanner, are a unique travel company that allow their users to search for flights, hotels and car hire, amongst other things, using their meta search engine. And boy, I’m sure most of you certainly people living in the UK are hoping that sometime soon you’ll be able to hit the book button and get some flights or hotels booked. So Gemma’s been on quite a journey since qualifying as a lawyer over a decade ago, and she’s someone I describe as a 360 privacy leader as she has vast legal, compliance, risk and operational experience and has a fantastic track record in building privacy, credibility and awareness, meaning to push the privacy discussion to the top of the table and all of this in uniquely challenging businesses. She’s worked at. So that’s why I’m really keen to explore this further with Gemma today and part of the reason I wanted to get her on the show. So, Gemma? Hello and welcome to the padcast.

Gemma Witham: [00:01:32] Thank you. Thank you very much, Anthony. Very happy to be here and to explore this topic with you, just to add to your introduction there. I’m going to be doing Skyscanner a disservice if I don’t also say that we do some direct bookings. So we’re not just a metasearch travel agent, but we also do some direct booking platform, which is quite interesting from a data personal data perspective and kind of ownership of that data, which I’m sure we’re going to explore through the podcast. But yeah, thank you.

Anthony Brown: [00:01:59] Well, you learn something every day, so thank you. Thank you for that. Well, of course. So I mean, how are things? How are things, Gemma? I mean, it would be remiss of me to not ask you, you know, we’re here. We’re sat in the UK. It’s the final furlong. We’re all hoping of what has been a very long journey. We’re kind of towards, yeah, the final furlong, really of UK lockdown three. So how are things, how are things for you and working at home?

Gemma Witham: [00:02:32] I mean, I think pretty much the same as everyone else around the world. Slightly bored, a bit frustrated, slightly deflated. Yeah, I mean, it’s been completely different for me to spend this much time. I think in one place, actually like my life before lockdown was involved, a lot of travelling, both for kind of from a work perspective and also from a kind of personal perspective. So yeah, being stuck in one place has been quite challenging, but I think also quite rewarding. I mean, I think we all know the sort of the challenges that come with having a kind of fast paced life. I think being able to stop and reflect and appreciate things differently has been rewarding in many ways. I think the extent of the lockdown now and like the unknown of what we’re facing into, makes it quite hard to be kind of grateful for it. But I think I do think when you look back in the future at this time, it’s definitely a sort of pivotal time for change in everyone’s life. And I worked at home quite a lot anyway, given my kind of varied roles or hotels from airports, from different countries, whatever.  So actually this remote working thing for me, I’m kind of used to it hasn’t been so problematic. I think it’s just the sort of mundane ness of day to day has been difficult. I also joined Skyscanner during lockdown, so I joined. Joining a company where you meet people remotely has been very challenging, I think because you can’t just have those kind of introductory chats over the kind of water cooler or the coffee machine, you know, you have to kind of be much more forceful to kind of open doors and meet people. So that’s something that has been very unique to me. Like, I think a lot of my career has been very sort of, you know, obviously in face to face situations, but where I’ve really prided myself in actually developing those face to face relationships. So I’ve had to kind of unlock a new skill set there as well. So but yeah, it’s in summary, I think it’s seems worse than it is at the moment, and hopefully we will look back and appreciate it more in the future.

Anthony Brown: [00:04:34] So yeah, absolutely. Excuse me, and I think you touched on really a topic or the basis actually for why I was very keen to talk to you. I thought it’d be really useful for our listeners to get some insight from a privacy leader around how you, you know, how you lead from the front, how you swim against the privacy tide, how you make things. You know, things happen in businesses because there’s no doubt there’s been a journey over the last few years in regards to privacy for any privacy leader. And I know as well you’ve had some uniquely challenging roles. For example, you were at Wonga.com who fairly infamous business in the UK. You were head of legal for their international business and head of privacy for them. Following that, you were group privacy officer at Tesco. So obviously an enormous role I would imagine multi-jurisdictional in, you know, a huge global business. So and then obviously, I think from my understanding as well, perhaps you can tell us a bit more about it, but you then prior to Skyscanner, you spent some time as a consultant, as a privacy consultant. You did a lot of flying, as you mentioned earlier, and particularly over to the West Coast of the US. And you work with some really, really interesting businesses over there. Could you perhaps just just kick us off briefly Gemma and tell us a bit a bit more about your career and journey and perhaps how you ended up specializing in privacy and why? Really?

Gemma Witham: [00:06:04] Yeah, sure. And so I am a lawyer by training, so I trained at Addleshaw Goddard, which at the time was just a national law firm and I qualified into the commercial team. I did some paralegalling actually before I qualified in consumer credit, so I started with the sort of financial services team at Addleshaws. I then qualified into the commercial team and I think in those days they didn’t want anybody to be necessarily a specialist, certainly. So we sort of qualified into commercial and did a bit of I.T., IP and data. And I think, you know, going back sort of 10+ years data was kind of important, but it definitely didn’t have the sort of prioritization of kind of an area of specialism that it probably does now. And so I stayed there for for a number of years and did a lot of secondments in the commercial department. You’re kind of you’re kind of primed to go out to secondments, I did a number of different secondments. And I think I saw the light a little bit and thought, actually, I, I actually enjoy being in house. I enjoy kind of seeing things through and being part of a broader conversation. And so I was head hunted by wonga. I think mostly because I had kind of consumer credit from my paralegal days, commercial lawyer and the data protection element, which is what I spent quite a lot of time. When I was in the commercial team at Addleshaws, I was kind of aligned to a partner there who specialized in data, so I naturally picked a lot up.  So I went across to Wonga and I kind of thought of it at the time as a secondment. Like, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll go back to Addleshaws or go to another law firm. I kind of thought, what have I got to lose here. I met the general counsel at the time and I massively respected her and thought, I can learn from her. This is an interesting business. I think I was a bit naive. I don’t think I really knew the extent of what I was going to be facing by going into that business as a kind of, you know, junior mid-level associate. But it was probably like the highlight of my career. I would say I literally dealt with anything you can imagine as a lawyer like I had. I’m not going to list all the things that were thrown at me, but honestly, anything you could imagine was thrown at me some very interesting times. As the kind of business faced more regulatory scrutiny. I think it became more challenging to be a lawyer there, and I moved across to sort of doing a more compliance based role and actually realised that wasn’t really where my strengths were. I wanted to do a more broader kind of role within legal risk and compliance, not just the compliance role. So at that time, I moved across to Tesco and was really brought in to sort of the amount of data that Tesco was processing.  So my role across the bank, across the mobile business, across the data analytics business. And actually, if you think about the richness of the data sets that they have and what the opportunity was and actually how important it was to get those foundations in place to enable the business to utilise the data in kind of the ways that it wanted to. And I joined in 2015, so pre GDPR, but given the kind of nature of how big the organisation was and the global application of it as well, and we started work on the project pretty sort of soon after I joined, actually. So I spent a long time working on a multi kind of jurisdictional multi business compliance compliance program, sorry, which I really enjoyed. Actually, I think I learnt a lot from from doing that compliance program. I think also I think we’ve spoken about this before and the things that I learned at Wonga. You don’t necessarily appreciate your picking up, but you know, even sort of basic things like what does a risk committee do in relation to? How do you get sort of sign up for a product, then how do you apply that to the concept of a privacy risk committee? If I’m having to sort of make some decisions across a multi jurisdictional, you know, multi sort of. Types of companies that Tesco, so yeah, so learnt lots of things that I then took to Tesco, I think then I got to the stage in my career where I think many people do like, well, what next? I’m kind of group privacy officer at Tesco.  Super interesting, but I feel like I want a bigger challenge. Still, I think I always want that next challenge. And so I decided actually I would set my own consulting business up. So I did that and I really, really enjoyed working for myself. But it comes with kind of pros and cons, so I think working for yourself gives you that kind of flexibility. It also obviously gives you uncertainty. And I think the reason that I went in house in the first place was to really have a seat around the table when decisions are being made and being able to kind of influence the business. I think as a consultant, I probably struggled with that lack of decision making. So I would, you know, obviously give my opinion. But it wasn’t necessarily as considered as if you were an in-house representative. And I think I found that probably not as rewarding as I thought it was going to be. So I then got approached by Skyscanner and really got bought into kind of this is almost exciting things that I like doing. I love the product. I love travelling. And yeah, they have a lot of data and there’s some real opportunity here for me to kind of add some value. So moved to Skyscanner. Like I said, July last year and yeah, six months, six seven months later here I am.

Anthony Brown: [00:11:30] Yeah, fantastic. And you know, as we said earlier, fingers crossed in the not too distant future, things are going to are going to explode. I think everyone is going to be looking for flights, booking holidays, booking hotels.

Gemma Witham: [00:11:46] That is part of our strategy. So fingers crossed. Otherwise, we might not all have jobs going forward. But yes, that is the plan. And you know, how can travel not come back? It’s such an important part of everyone’s lives. I think, you know, it will come back. It’s just when does it come back and in what shape and form does it come back and and you know, things are going to change significantly, and it’s just making sure that we’re, you know, aware of what those changes might be or we can kind of try and predict what those changes might be and, you know, try to try to keep on top of them. So it’s very interesting times, for sure.

Anthony Brown: [00:12:19] Well, we’re pretty remarkable us human beings, aren’t we? Somehow, we’ve all been on a journey over the last year or so and we’ve somehow managed to, you know, break our lives down to the most simple form. And and in the main, I know not everyone is the same, but in the main people, certainly that I’m speaking to on a professional level only while remaining positive and have continued to do so. And most basic leisure activities have been taken away from us. And so many people love to travel and it’s awful. I mean, we mustn’t think about it too much because  We’re going to go down the wrong path with the padcast here. So, you know, obviously, as you’ve described, you’ve worked for a variety of businesses, you know, fast growing, high growth businesses. You’ve worked for global powerhouses like Tesco, you’ve worked for yourself, you’ve worked in multi-jurisdictional across multiple jurisdictions, I should say. And so so just I guess what I want to ask you about here is the privacy journey over the last few years, let’s say from when GDPR came in. What’s your sense, having worked for a multitude of businesses about how the privacy ethics discussion has changed within businesses, so the question is, has it changed really since GDPR? Have you seen a sea change?

Gemma Witham: [00:13:41] I think I mean, you know, yes, I think it has changed since GDPR, but I don’t think it’s just GDPR that’s changed how companies think about privacy these days. So I think there’s a number of different sort of reasons. I think individuals are much more aware of their rights these days, and that drives many more conversations. I think investors care a lot more about privacy as well from because I think it has that kind of reputation, reputational impact as well as, of course, like fines and enforcement. But I think it’s also, you know, I think it’s it’s across. It’s not just GDPR, I think it’s legislation across the world that’s driving all of these different conversations at different levels in all of these different countries. So I think I think, yes, it has changed, but I think it’s just for a number of different reasons, not just because because of the law. I think also, you know, data breaches are such a high profile when they happen, and I think every company doesn’t want to be, you know, the next victim of a data breach for many, many reasons.  You know, you see share price drops after data breaches happen. You see kind of the enforcement element really continue for a long time. Plus actions that are much more kind of prevalent these days, as we’ve seen off the back of a number of data breaches. So I think I think GDPR has been has forced people or have forced companies to to consider privacy a lot more. But I think it is much broader than just the legal reasons as well. I mean, I think values of companies are much more kind of prevalent and important these days, and a lot of them hang on trust and the use of data is massively aligned to those that trust. So I think if you’ve got a value driven company that uses a lot of data, I think regardless of whether there’s a law there, you know, you have to kind of you have to really do the right thing when it comes to the use of personal data because it’s so people are so much more aware of their rights as well.

Anthony Brown: [00:15:44] Yeah, absolutely. And then you throw in the mix at the moment, some incredibly high profile battles, I guess, are bubbling. And then you’ve got Apple vs. Facebook, the whole WhatsApp sort of debacle, if you like over the last few weeks. And all these things are fantastic learning posts for the general population, aren’t they? It’s raising the privacy discussion has been highlighted. People are becoming more aware and therefore that then impacts on all businesses knowing that they have to be more conscious.

Gemma Witham: [00:16:18] I was just about to say, I think that is also helpful for us as kind of privacy professionals, because the more that our leaders, our boards read about these kind of challenges within the press, like nobody wants to have their company’s name associated with all of these kind of challenges unless you can spin it to to to your benefit. But I think for sure, it’s important to kind of, you know, the conversation’s still going all the time and we can use that to our to our benefit as well. So, yeah, I agree completely.

Anthony Brown: [00:16:46] Absolutely. And these, you know, these external factors, obviously now moving forward are going to make your life and you know your your peers life as a CPOs, DPOs, etc hopefully a little bit easier when it comes to influencing at the top table and businesses. Yeah, I know that. I mean, you’ve always struck me, Gemma, as somebody who’s who’s just gets things done and you’ve been successful in doing that. You’ve got a track record of changing privacy, culture in organizations, building world class programs. I’m thinking Tesco in particular there and embedding privacy awareness across all layers of a business. What what from your experiences or best practice to to really, where do you start with leading from the front? And how do you go about changing privacy culture when you start in a new role, when you went, you know, join a new business?

Gemma Witham: [00:17:43] Yeah, really good question. I think I’ve been asked is quite a lot. I think it’s you have to get stuck in, so you literally have to go and meet people and, you know, show your value. I think show that you are a business partner, show that you’re not just a compliance function, show that you can really enable. You’re an enabler. You can support the business. You can highlight opportunities of how data can be used. Maybe where previously they’ve thought, Oh, we can’t do that from a from a privacy perspective. Why can’t you? I think a lot of the time, I mean, I’ve had people in Skyscanner recently where I’ve met them for the first time and they sort of start the conversation with, I’m sure you’re going to say no, and I’m like, Well, of course I’m going to say no if it’s kind of in breach of the law, but what is it you want to do? And let’s have a conversation to try and work out what we can do rather than you assume I’m going to say no about things. So I think it’s about relationship building for sure, and it’s about getting the business to trust you and get them to see you as a really valued partner, not just to kind of, you know, compliance police or something like that.  So in the day that in the days that we were able to travel, I really encourage my teams to kind of get on a plane and go and meet people face to face because I think the value that you get then from that sort of building trust and building relationships is like just, you know, so important and so critical. Having to do that remotely means that you’re having to find out who those people are and have those conversations, but still equally important to to to keep that conversation going and really kind of find out who the core people are in the business and just go and talk to them, talk to them and get to know who they are and how they work.  I think it’s really about trust and showing that you can help the business, that you’re there to help them and actually, you know, privacy is all about getting things right from the beginning. If we’re if we have a seat around the table at the beginning, we don’t waste time designing a product or a process that is not in line with privacy requirements. And you don’t want to come in at the end and say, Well, you can’t do that. Of course, we will do that if we need to, but it’s better to have that seat at the table at the beginning and make sure that we’re designing it in the right way.  So I think it’s about building relationships for sure, but being credible in how you’re doing that and also showing that you’re practical in how you’re applying the law. So, you know, of course, there’s lots of laws that you know, people will read about in the press. So all the sort of Shrem decisions recently and all the kind of international data transfers stuff like that’s really labor intensive to do. And of course, we have to do it. But let’s find a way that’s realistic for our business to do it. That ticks the compliance box that addresses what we need to do, but doesn’t do it in a like overly scary way that we need to go and, you know, recruit a big forum, pay millions of pounds, which of course, like a company like Skyscanner, is not going to not going to have the money at the moment to do so. How can we how can we mitigate that risk in a totally compliant way, but in a really proportionate way and showing that you can add value in that way? I think opens doors and then you sort of get more traction and the conversation is you’re bought into a lot more so.

Anthony Brown: [00:20:45] And the seat at the top table or the opportunity to talk at the top table, do you think do you think it’s much it’s much easier to get that air time now perhaps than it was, say, when you joined Tesco, for example. Have you noticed change yet?

Gemma Witham: [00:20:59] I think it depends on the company. So, you know, if you go into a company where they’ve had some form of regulatory interaction before, then of course you’re going to have much more open door. If you go into a company that’s like in a high growth stage, they probably are focusing on how we can grow the business, not how we can do it in a compliant way. So it’s making sure that you can spot an opportunity to mitigate risk in the best way. With with your role, depending on kind of what stage that companies are or what experiences that company has gone through. But again, it’s like back to what I just said. It’s been credible and being like realistic and practical in how you comply with this area of law. I think will then just open more doors as well.

Anthony Brown: [00:21:43] Yeah. So it’s pretty clear. So the combination of skill set and as I described you as a 360 privacy leader, you’ve got all of those, those facets. You’ve got to throw in a huge amount of soft skills and communication skills as well to get that sort of buy in from the top table. Just sort of on that note, then in the combination of skills that you’ve got and we’ve we’ve we’ve, you know, it’s pretty clear that you need this huge combination of skills. Now how how do you see your kind of role or a CPOs role evolving over the coming years? So do you think there’s going to be more to add in the mix for you guys to do?

Gemma Witham: [00:22:25] I think I don’t think necessarily more in the mix, but I think more focus on more prioritization of what we do. So as businesses become more data driven, I think getting those foundations right are just going to be so important. I think, you know, even if you think about in the last three to five years, I would say, I don’t know, I’m just assuming, but I would assume that there’s way more chief privacy officers and group privacy officers than there really ever have been. And I think, you know, historically somebody would be given the data protection officer title and kind of, you know, put in and maybe finance team in a very sort of junior level and not really have that kind of voice that they were that they need to have to influence across the business like you don’t I don’t see that anymore. I see the role of the chief privacy officer as really having a seat around the table, really having it, having that kind of influence on a business. And I think that’s just going to become I think that’s just going to continue to kind of evolve to have more importance going forward. You know, I think in the same way that, you know, a chief data officer or a chief information officer is kind of the norm in a sort of tech company. I do think that the role of the chief privacy officer is important, particularly where you want to do more innovative and more data focused uses of the data, I guess, or the business model is much more focused around data. Yeah, yeah.

Anthony Brown: [00:23:46] So I mean, I’d love to see a time. And in fact, I think we’re getting there now that when when some of these hyper growth businesses, tech businesses or fintech and all these sort of businesses, one of the first hires they make will be somebody who’s a specialist in privacy. Because the whole privacy by design piece there’s there’s so much more aware now, you know, these young fledgling businesses, they do, they’ve got to build it into their product from the get go. Otherwise you’re it’s pointless making the products. Otherwise, you can spend a lot of time backtracking. Rebuilding all that sort of stuff. And I have to say from my experience as well specializing in this space as a headhunter for a number of years now, since about 2014, you know, it’s unrecognizable in many ways that the individuals that I was speaking to then typically sat in a compliance team, they’re on their own. They didn’t feel particularly loved. And then now, invariably in a larger organization, of course, it’s a standalone team, you know, and it’s growing. And within that team, you’ve got, you know, you’ve got a CPO, you’ve got some technical individuals, you’ve got the operational, you’ve got the compliance, you’ve got you’ve got a real variety of roles within the team.

Gemma Witham: [00:24:58] Yeah, definitely. I mean, my team now at Skyscanner is obviously a lot smaller than it was at Tesco. And actually we are all lawyers, but lawyers that have had I mean, I’ve had sort of I’ve managed legal risk and compliance like I’ve said before. So I kind of bring that experience. But at Tesco, I had I managed to I think lawyers were kind of in the minority and my team actually, I had kind of governance people, compliance specialists, risk specialist program managers, project managers, I think. And you know. I can’t recommend enough how having a broad mix of specialisms within a privacy team is really critical to success, like there’s so much to do sometimes that actually having that real risk specialist that can focus our efforts in exactly the right way to mitigate risk in the most effective way and then being able to demonstrate that to the board or to the executive team that actually we’re on this journey, but we’re mitigating it in the right way. And this is why I’m being able to show all the sort of KPIs around that is incredibly compelling. Again, to what I was saying earlier around kind of being being able to demonstrate that you’re adding value. I think having that skill set is really key. Lawyers are not traditionally good at like compliance compliance, things like drafting a policy or designing some training like, you know, probably not all lawyers like core skills, actually, as if a lawyer gives a compliance specialist the kind of skeleton or that or the information that needs to go in a policy. And then the compliance specialist drafts the policy, you know, prepares the training. It’s much easier and a much kind of it’s inevitably going to be much more successful. So, yeah, so it’s definitely privacy. I think having those cross-functional areas within a privacy team is always going to set you up for success.

Anthony Brown: [00:26:50] Yeah. Do you and do you think is there a point where a CPO like yourself says it’s mission complete or is it it’s infinite? Is it? Is it just infinite in terms of doing the job? Joining a new business and then making the changes you need to?

Gemma Witham: [00:27:07] I think I’ve been really proud in many of the companies that I’ve worked in or advice where you hear people talking about privacy without even you prompting them to do so or, you know, they’re like, we need to think about, we need to think about this when you’re in a kind of design meeting. To me, that’s like, great. We’ve kind of done our job because you’re talking about it and I’m not having to put like, I’m not having to step in and say, Well, this is what we need to do. So I think. Opening that kind of broader conversation, which isn’t always led by the privacy team, I think is mission complete. I think having a trusted brand, so having a company which is kind of respected for doing the right thing when it comes to data is always kind of important. Having low from a kind of management information perspective, having numbers that stack up against what you’re saying. So for example, we have we comply with all our data subject rights in the right time frames. We have low numbers of customer complaints when it comes to data. All these things, I think, show that. So show that the mission is complete. But I also think you know, the business asking for like Gemma in the privacy team or Sarah and the privacy team to come to a meeting, not can I have privacy or can I have legal counsel meeting so that we’re respected is actually adding value in broader ways rather than just being the lawyer that has to be in the room because we have to have a lawyer listening to it, I think is a really proud moment for me. So but I think it is a continuing journey. If you think about what faces us kind of over the next, however many months, years, I mean, this is going to be ever evolving legislation, guidance codes, you know, the whole of the kind of technology sector is changing, the whole of the ad tech sector is changing and, you know, we have to keep abreast with all of that. So. So yeah, I think mission complete to a certain extent when people know who we are, see the value that we add and invite us to the table. But we’re going to have to keep keep up that kind of relationship and that value add constantly from because it’s just so, so changing so much, I guess.

Anthony Brown: [00:29:13] Yeah. And I think we’re right at the beginning of the story of privacy, really, aren’t we? I know privacy issues have been around for in different guises, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years or, you know, over 100 years. Certainly, you know, from a legal perspective, that is but we’re really in this age we’re living through now at the very start. I mean, the journey is is exciting. It’s it’s overwhelming. It’s it’s, you know, it is so much, so much for people to do so. Final question for you, Gemma. Yeah, that whizzed by didn’t it, what would you what what would you say you enjoy most about your role, about being a chief privacy officer?

Gemma Witham: [00:29:57] Yeah, I think I think it’s the the broad relevance of the role. So I think as a lawyer and being involved in all the different aspects of a business, so it is really rewarding and actually really interesting and keeps and keeps it interesting. So, you know, we don’t just advise the marketing team or the product team, you know, we advise the employment team. We advise the kind of data scientists we advise, you know, the brand team, we advise the communications team like everything has an element of privacy to it really. So being able to kind of touch the broader business, I think, is really interesting, particularly from a from a legal perspective. And I think actually being part of designing the strategy of the business as well has been really interesting. And I think the reason that I’ve certainly been around the table at Skyscanner when the new strategy has been discussed is it’s really just because it’s so driven by data. And so let’s not have something in our in our strategy that is actually, you know, we can’t we can’t deliver because we haven’t got the right foundations in place or is it’s not it’s not possible at the moment. So having that kind of broad ability to influence is really interesting. I think also, you know, it’s quite it’s quite new and exciting and dynamic and innovative and all the kind of new technologies that are coming out in relation to whether that’s kind of, I don’t know, ITP or how that works or how we’re going to look at AI – all of these things will require, you know, that’s how businesses need to progress to be successful. And we’re going to have to have a really key influence or impacts on how businesses, you know, implement that and engage with that. So, yeah, I think it’s fast paced dynamic. It’s never boring. Yeah. And so that’s what I think makes my role really interesting.

Anthony Brown: [00:31:50] Yeah. And I think I think my mind, I was just thinking, we’re going to have to have a part two of this. I think we’re going to have to have a second padcast, I think, in a few months time because it will be fascinating, particularly the business you work for and the challenges you guys have faced. But obviously, data is at the core of the business and it’ll be really fascinating to get you on again. And we can tell everyone what you can tell everyone how the journey’s been and I’m a skyscanner users so you know I’m just hoping you guys pull through. I know you’re in good shape. We’re going to come through. It’s all going to be positive. So it’s been. Yeah, it’s been fascinating. Gemma, thank you so much. I really hope our listeners take something away with them from this session. I’m sure they will. And as I said, we’ll have a part two. So it just leads me to say thank you again. Tune in, Subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, like do whatever you want, but definitely come back and watch another episode. Gemma Witham from Skyscanner. Thank you so much and well, we’ll speak soon. Take care.

Gemma Witham: [00:33:05] Thanks very much. Ok, bye bye.

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