Episode 2: Cavan Fabris

Season 3
Cavan Fabris

Season 3

Episode 2: Cavan Fabris

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Anthony Brown: [00:00:00] Hello there, I'm Anthony Brown and I'm very pleased to welcome you to another episode of the podcast. Series three is all about journeys through privacy. Each episode I'll be talking to a leading privacy thought leader about their career journey. We'll discuss their stellar career in detail and learn more about their experiences along the way, both good and bad. For today's episode, I'm really thrilled to be joined by Cavan Fabris, who is the legal advisory lead partner for the chamber's ranked data privacy, cyber security and telecoms practice at Deloitte UK. Deloitte, of course, are one of, if not the largest professional services firm in the world. Cavan, it's great to see you, a warm welcome to the podcast and how is your year going so far?

Cavan Fabris: [00:01:09] Well, pleasure to be here Anthony. Thank you again for the invitation. The year is going quite well so far despite the economic headwinds that we're all experiencing. I think privacy and cyber remain top priorities for for many of my clients.

Anthony Brown: [00:01:25] Absolutely. I can imagine so. And anyone listening to this, you know, we're coming up towards the end of April in 2023 and there's there's there's no shortage of news at the moment. Um, you know, around the global geopolitical situation and, you know, the Ukraine war in relation to cyber issues, which, you know, I'm sure we may well touch on at some point today. But you're right in the in the middle of all of these issues, obviously at Deloitte. Um, so I've been eager to record a podcast with Cavan, as he said, a really remarkable and truly international career which has seen him work and live in multiple jurisdictions. Um, his fascinating journey has seen him swap a successful career as a senior sales director in the telecoms industry for an even more successful career in law. Cavan now has over 20 years experience as a lawyer in the tech space, and has worked internationally for some of the world's biggest tech and professional services businesses. And what in what must be a career highlight, surely? Cavan had the honour and privilege to spend five years serving as an economic and commercial diplomat with the US Department of State, after accepting a presidential appointment from the then president of the United States, Barack Obama. Seriously impressive stuff. So lots of talk about Cavan. Firstly, it'd be great to hear more about your early days, if you don't mind. Was there some signs early on in your life that perhaps you were going to spend a lot of time overseas? You were destined to work for international businesses?

Cavan Fabris: [00:03:06] Anthony, I don't know if I was ever destined for much of anything, mind you, but let alone a career internationally. I grew up largely outside the Washington, D.C. area in the US, and I think being around such an international city, um, a political city, one that exposes you to multiple cultures, multiple people. Um, put me first and foremost, I think just in the environment. And I think that you're a big product of the environments that you're in and the exposure that you have. I've been asked this question a couple of times, and it kind of takes me back to one particular event as as a 13 year old during a career day. Um, in school, in which I learned that the father of one of the good friends of mine was a career diplomat for for the American government, and came in and told us about his fascinating story and his career path. Um, in addition, my dad used to travel a tremendous amount internationally and would come home with the interesting stories, as well as as the gifts he'd bring home from from far places abroad. And I think maybe, maybe those two things combined put me on a path. Other than that, it's been it's been circumstances and opportunities.

Anthony Brown: [00:04:27] Yeah. And I think from one of our previous conversations, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that your parents had both, I think emigrated or migrated or, you know, they they'd been all around the world themselves. Is that right?

Cavan Fabris: [00:04:43] Well, my dad had I'm a product of of you know, if you look at most Americans, we don't necessarily say that we're American. American isn't necessarily an ethnicity. We're a product of a variety of different cultures and and ethnicities from around the world. My my mom is part of what many Americans would call Irish. There's more people of Irish descent in the US than there are in Ireland. And and I am a proud to be have that Irish descent through my mother. My dad was born and raised in Mexico City, emigrated to the US after meeting my mom when she was on, on on a holiday. So pretty much a circumstance there. So yeah, I am a product of an immigrant family. I'm the oldest son of an immigrant to the US that exposes you to two different cultures. It exposes you to different things. Um, it makes you distinctly aware of of your of your origins of who you are. But whether or not that necessarily shaped me in terms of an international career, I don't know. I don't think you necessarily think about all those things. When you're a teenager, you tend to think about a bunch of other things. But, you know, I'm particularly proud of the background that I do have. I think it's shaped me in certain areas. It's exposed me to different cultures. Um, and thankfully, I've had some wonderful opportunities to be exposed to international experiences abroad at, at at least at that time in the 80s and 90s, when I was growing up, which were unique for somebody my age.

Anthony Brown: [00:06:27] And did you feel do you remember if you go back to those, you know, your teenage years for example, do you, do you remember sort of having a sense that you, you would like to see lots of the world and work internationally and stuff, or is it just it's all organically.

Cavan Fabris: [00:06:42] No. I've always wanted to travel, always been fascinated by travel. And I think in the 80s and 90s we were still enamored by by travel. You know, it wasn't the challenges of the slog of having to make your way through the airport as we do today. And I think the glamour of international travel was definitely something first and forefront in my mind. I had a wonderful opportunity while at university to work at the World's Fair in Seville, Spain, for for several months for about six, six, nine months. And I think that exposure to multiple cultures, multiple people my age, I was 19 at the time gives you a tremendous amount of respect, understand cultural awareness. Um, and I think that that probably really brought home the fact that that I really enjoyed doing it and doing this, and I really enjoyed doing, doing things in a, in a foreign environment.

Anthony Brown: [00:07:45] And you. You studied international studies, is that right? That was your first degree I think so. So again, international, I mean, you may say, or that there wasn't a theme going here and it was just, you know, kind of happened or but, you know, all these things combined, it was it's quite funny. I would imagine in hindsight, looking back.

Cavan Fabris: [00:08:03] Yeah, I think I think looking back, I think the goal, you know, in those days was to expose myself as, as internationally as I could. I was very politically oriented back then. The school that I went to had a specific school for international studies within, within its institution. It's called the American University School of International Studies. It's considered a diplomat training academy, not just for the Americans, but for other foreign governments. And being in Washington, D.C. exposes you to lots of different things. I had the opportunity to work on Capitol Hill on Foreign Affairs. I had the opportunity to work for a leading US think tank on strange things like chemical and biological weapons proliferation, um, you know, work for a foreign embassy, things that you wouldn't necessarily be exposed to in other parts of the world and or at other universities, and was just lucky to take advantage of those opportunities to to broaden my cultural horizons, broaden the opportunities that I have in front of me. You know, I had absolutely no idea what kind of career I'd make out of any of it, but I was at least going to try to be as international, internationally focused as I could during that time.

Anthony Brown: [00:09:19] So your first foray, really, at the start of your career was really into senior sales roles within the telecoms industry. Is that right? Well.

Cavan Fabris: [00:09:28] My first job out of uni was I was a speechwriter for a governor in Virginia on economic and trade issues, and that exposed me to a lot of things on the business side of things. Move that into a telecoms aspect. When I was working at the World's Fair in Spain, I was responsible for running what at that time was a video conferencing center, one of one of the first commercial video conferencing centers of its kind. Today, you and I are communicating through through video conferencing that back in the early 90s, you had to go to specially built facilities to do so. I ran one while I was there in Spain, and I think that's where I got the telecoms bug. So after finishing my my political stint with in Virginia, I moved into tech because I've always loved tech and telecoms in particular, and the company that I was working for in the US moved me to Belgium. They sent me to Belgium to help them lead their European efforts in telecoms. And that then led to me getting a opportunity with my largest supplier at that time of wholesale telecoms, bandwidth services, and that's how I got into telecom sales and was lucky enough to start as an account manager for the likes of Colt and Cable and Wireless, and then grew that into into leadership opportunities in the telecom sales and business development.

Anthony Brown: [00:11:00] So you spend a few years doing that, but then you found yourself deciding that you wanted to move into a career in law. What happened around that sort of time?

Cavan Fabris: [00:11:11] Don't know if that was necessarily a. A conscious decision. I, like many others, found themselves as victims of the.com bubble bursting. I found myself out of a job. I was the vice president of business development for a company that had a really difficult time getting a round of funding. As a result of getting just some bridge funding to keep the company afloat, they had to let half the company go. And I was part of of the leadership team that was associated with that half of the company. And during the.com bubble bursting. It's not as if there were other tremendous job opportunities available. So I took a pause, and it was during that pause that I was reminded by family and friends that, hey, you're not going to get another opportunity to go back to school. You're not going to get another opportunity to pursue something in law or maybe a business, an MBA. Take that opportunity. Now, you know, I know it's going to be tough. They told me, because you're doing this as a second career, you're now 30. So now you've got to reinvent yourself again. And in the States to to to reinvent yourself as a lawyer, it's not simply going to take a test or what have you. It's a three year commitment in law school plus what comes afterwards. So I took the plunge, put myself back through through law school and and then reinvented myself as a as a telecoms lawyer.

Anthony Brown: [00:12:54] Amazing. Wow. So I'm trying to. Picture when I was when I was 30, around that sort of age. And I think my, my, my son was born and, you know, you sort of I remember myself at that time wondering, you know, were days running out to maybe do something a bit different or, you know, and I chickened out, I think every time because I just felt, you know, I've got to learn. I've got to learn. But, you know, in hindsight, it would have been fantastic to be able to do that.

Cavan Fabris: [00:13:24] I had a tremendous amount of support from from my wife. We didn't have kids at the time yet, and, and I was the leading breadwinner in the family, and she was kind enough to to invest in me and to put me through law school and to continue working when I was in law school. And and that's how I was able to do it. Without that, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I think at a different time in my life, if kids were there, um, I would have just had to find another way to make a living rather than go without, um, making a living for for for the three.

Anthony Brown: [00:14:05] So why law then? Cavern. What? Oh, God.

Cavan Fabris: [00:14:09] That's a good. That's a good question, Anthony. I think I think it goes back to, you know, the people in my life at that point in time. You know, I had relatives that, you know. Oh, you'll be a great lawyer. I think we've all heard from our, you know, maybe our aunts, uncles, parents. Oh, you're a wonderful arguer. You know, you'd make a great lawyer. And I think just listening to all those things and and then the second part of it, Anthony, is, is maybe, maybe fear is at that point in time after being made redundant. I think one of the things you look for is some career or job certainty, or at least as much as that you're going to get right. And I felt that a career in law, if you did it well enough, provided a certain, maybe higher level of job security, maybe a higher level of of of a level of independence, maybe I thought at that time that even if I wasn't able to go the traditional law firm route, I could then at least go out on my own and control my own destiny as a lawyer. So I thought, with all those things in mind, that's why I chose law over, let's say, an MBA or.

Anthony Brown: [00:15:21] Yeah. So what does make a good lawyer then? Outside of being good at arguing?

Cavan Fabris: [00:15:26] Oh, God. And to be honest, I think I'm a horrible arguer now. But, um, you know, I think, I think the idea of a lawyer and what makes a good lawyer is rapidly changing. I think there used to be a time in which providing excellent, timely advice on the black letter law. Um, has has passed. I think clients look for more. They're looking for business solutions. They're looking for lawyers who understand what what their organization does, who can tailor the law and the analysis of the law to meet a business need that can drive value into the business. They can help see where there's business opportunities that could leverage interpretations of the law. And then they remove burdens from the general counsel. General counsels are forced today to do so much with so little. Um, external legal support is more than just simply providing legal advice. It's actually helping them deliver solutions that they can't do on their own, either due to a capacity, their own individual capacity. It could be resourcing, it could be a number of different things. Um, and, and they no longer have the desire or the time to read through, you know, ten, 20 pages of legal advice that that don't necessarily come with a decision. It just comes with advice. It just it it shifts the burden back to the general counsel to make a decision. And I think GCS want want lawyers who help them on the decision making process by providing solutions. And and that's. I think where I've been lucky as a second career lawyer and being in business first, you tend to understand the solutions that drive things, and I'm lucky that I have a background in tech in the physical aspects of tech. I. Been in data centers and pulled cables and installed routers and then being able to sell it. And now as a lawyer, you can bring all of that together and and deliver the solutions that I think general counsels are looking for to drive their business.

Anthony Brown: [00:17:45] And I think.

Cavan Fabris: [00:17:46] That shapes what attorneys are, in my opinion, what what attorneys are going to become.

Anthony Brown: [00:17:53] And I guess that's why. And we'll come on to this in a short while. But, you know, perhaps you were drawn, you know, your your skill set, your commercial experience was drawn almost inevitably to a professional services platform. Um, you know, where you could you could use that platform and plug in with all of your both the technical, you know, legal, commercial expertise. Um, perhaps that's it was always written in the start.

Cavan Fabris: [00:18:23] I think it's been I wish it was that that easy. Anthony. I think having a non-traditional career path, especially in law, that values a very traditional career path. You know, if you look at most lawyers, you know, they they there is a very. Each well traveled path in how to become a lawyer and how to become a good lawyer. I don't. I haven't followed that path. You know, you look at my career and it's, you know, it's. It goes all over the place, admittedly. Um, that doesn't necessarily fall into, you know, what the big law firms look for in this world. Um, and that's why maybe finding a home in the non-traditional areas, the non-traditional professional services environment has always been something that I've gravitated towards because it's allowed me to bring all my skill sets together, not just the legal one. It's allowed me to combine my technical background. It's allowed me to combine my sales background with legal training and experience, with a little diplomacy thrown in there as well to, um, to hope, to deliver solution. And I think that that's what you go to professional services for is for solutions rather than necessary rather than necessarily legal advice. However, I'll say that there's many law firms out there that are now seeing the value of providing that full service type of relationship with their clients. Um, the challenge that we have today is, is how can we get law schools and the traditional way of training lawyers to recognize that the practice of law is rapidly changing, and the idea of churning out individuals who can simply understand and analyze the law is no longer good enough. They have to be able to sell. They have to be able to active listen. They have to be able to diplomatically defuse situations, and they have to deliver solutions that are scalable, that. The delivery of those solutions may in fact not always have to involve a lawyer, which would be unheard of within more traditional legal services environments.

Anthony Brown: [00:20:53] So it was a it was an obvious kind of area for you to focus on and move into within TMT. I think initially was really your sort of broad focus. Cast your mind back to the early days as a lawyer. So I think we're talking mid mid-noughties here. What do you remember around that time around sort of any data privacy work or, you know, cyber stuff?

Cavan Fabris: [00:21:16] Yeah. No. Um, my first job was as a junior associate with with the firm that's now called Womble Bond Dickinson. At the time, the American side of the firm was called Womble Carlyle, Sandridge and rice, which is a large law firm based in the southeastern portion of the US. Um, and I joined as the only associate supporting ten partners. Right. And that I think you learn a lot very quickly. And it was ten, ten partners with very distinct collection of practices within the TMT world. We had everything from representing traditional radio stations in America through print media to cable television providers to telecoms providers, as well as some of the things that I used to get my hands in probably the majority of the time, which was representing entities in the Caribbean before national regulators on deregulating what were largely seen as anti-competitive markets in certain countries in the Caribbean to allow competitive services, especially on the mobile side. Um, but in terms of privacy, what what I saw was the very much American perspective of things. You had HIPAA, you had Coppa, which were two American sets, which are two sets of American regulatory areas, one in health care, one in child protection. Um, and you and I learned in supporting companies on HIPAA compliance, on Coppa compliance. Um, what privacy and data protection means to an American audience. And it's very much seen as a consumer protection perspective rather than the fundamental right that is the European perspective on things.

Cavan Fabris: [00:23:12] And I think my exposure, especially representing media companies on things along the lines of Coppa on First Amendment freedom of speech types of issues, puts privacy at the forefront of of some of those arguments. And it also allowed me to see how the Americans see that bit of data protection. Cyber back in those days wasn't necessarily a legal issue. It was, you know, we didn't have a tremendous amount of proliferation of cyber issues at that point in time that required legal support. However, what we did have, though, was credit reporting agencies, which are a very big thing in the US at that point in time, which, you know, when you have and the request that you can make to a credit reporting agency to get disclosures as to how they have reached their decisions on calculating a credit score for you. So what personal information are they looking at in order to generate a score, and how can you go about correcting it if you, as John Smith, have been confused with another John Smith and wrongfully have now incurred detriment because of that confusion. So I think, you know, I think those exposures brought me face to face with, with some elements of privacy. I think my my love for privacy and my desire for privacy career was largely fed out of two things.

Cavan Fabris: [00:24:47] One is a little bit of guilt, and the guilt comes from somewhat being responsible for for putting the fiber optics in the ground that we all use as part of our connectivity to the internet. And to see from my very early days in telecom until today, realizing what has happened, you know, in terms of the use of the internet and social media and things along those lines. So it's it's wanting to ensure that the intention behind the creation of all these technologies in the internet is done with understanding that there are people behind all of this, and then there is personal data inside all of this. And and that needs to be protected and preserved. The second part is, is my kids, you know, I see, you know, if somebody wanted to bully me as a kid in the 80s and 90s, you had to do it to my face. Um, today, kids are exposed to all sorts of online threats by individuals that they will. Never see face to face. And I think that there's an element of needing to be able to protect and preserve our children. Children that who are doing all sorts of great things using the internet, whether it be programming skills all the way up. There's also a need to ensure that the world that we're creating for them is is a positive one.

Anthony Brown: [00:26:23] Mm. Yeah. It's pretty terrifying, isn't it? Um. I've got children myself, and, um. Well, it's just still the Wild West in many ways. But, you know, progress is slowly being made. Um, so you spent around five years, I think, in law in, in law firms. Sorry. And then and then you moved in house and you actually went on to work for two of the world's most successful and largest tech businesses. So Hewlett Packard and and Apple. Um, how was that and what made you move in house and how was that transition for you?

Cavan Fabris: [00:27:01] Um, I really enjoyed my, my in house environment. I think similar to to how I've gotten into professional services is how I moved in house. I felt that there was a need to be on on the inside. There was need, need to have a sense of belonging to an organisation, to an ethos and help them, you know, move forward by providing legal assistance and support and guidance. Um, my time at Apple was was wonderful. I had always wanted to be part of Apple from growing up. I grew up learning on on Macintosh computers. I grew up loving Apple devices, and I thought that I had reached the pinnacle of my career. When I moved in house to to Apple, I thought it was just a great opportunity and it turned out to be an absolutely wonderful opportunity I had. I was responsible for a few geographies in the world in supporting iPhone and iPad in front of the carriers in the world, the Vodafone's of the world, the O2's of the world, um, and helping side by side with our sales teams. Negotiate long term partnerships with these carriers to get iPhone and iPad into into individuals hands and and there was a great experience. I got to work with some of the most wonderful people that I probably have ever had an opportunity to work with.

Anthony Brown: [00:28:33] And did you did you have or did you meet? Do you have access to Steve Jobs whilst you were there or.

Cavan Fabris: [00:28:40] Um, I've met Steve. I, I've been I was in a few meetings with Steve, especially on some of the deals that we were doing that were of significantly high value. Um, you know, lucky enough to have a conversation or two with him. I wouldn't say I was particularly exposed to Steve. I was at Apple when he passed, um, which was a really difficult experience for all of us. Um, did probably a little bit more with Tim Cook, um, as he was COO during my time there, and then took over for Steve after his passing. Um, and, and two very different individuals in their ways of working, but both extremely passionate about what they do and learned a tremendous amount just from being exposed to the environment that both of them created.

Anthony Brown: [00:29:33] So you had a you moved from law firms, then you went in-house. You had these amazing times and, you know, particularly at Apple, but you then find yourself being approached with an opportunity to serve as an economic, um, uh, diplomat with the US Department of State. He spent five years then in this role. I mean, how how does this come about? Um, tell us, please tell us.

Cavan Fabris: [00:30:02] You know, Anthony, I to this day, I don't you know, I've yet to really put my finger entirely on it. On on how it happened. But, um, when when I was approached, you know, it was a five year commitment. It was an opportunity to take some, some time away from what I was doing, make a commitment. Um, I come from a family of government service. Both my my, one of my brothers and my dad have been long involved in government service. Um, felt maybe it was my responsibility as well to, to do a little bit. But then it goes back to maybe, you know, a kid with a 13 year old dream of, of, of maybe wanting to do something internationally. Maybe it's going back to that career day discussion from my dad's, my, my buddy's dad, um, about his career. And then by that time I had two young children when I was approached and wanting my kids to maybe be exposed to a world outside of suburban United States was something that was was interesting. So in hindsight, you know, there's times in which I really miss the fact that I left Apple because, like I said, I really thought I had hit the the pinnacle of everything that I could do. Um, and everything that I wanted to do, being a diplomat just exposed me to a whole different world of, of different experiences. And, and I'd like to say that I'm maybe better for all those experiences as a result.

Anthony Brown: [00:31:49] And you were heavily involved at this time during that tenure within data privacy and cyber work, weren't you? You know, on an international level, weren't you or. Yeah.

Cavan Fabris: [00:32:01] The US government, you know, as an as an economic and commercial advisor, we kind of get involved in lots of different things. But one of the things that I was earmarked to help with was on areas such as telecoms, areas such as cyber, especially at those point in time, the idea or one of the one of the priorities of the US government was to encourage cyber regulation, cyber activities, cyber defense amongst friendly countries, simply just because of the rise of internet proliferation, the rise of the use of the internet, and the tools that are being used around the world. Committing to cyber crime and other various things. So yeah, I was exposed to that during my time as a diplomat in a variety of countries that allowed me to see cyber and data protection perspectives from from a few different areas.

Anthony Brown: [00:33:00] And then at the end of that period, you then you then decide, I guess, as a family to relocate to the UK. So we're going to sort of 2017 here. What drove that? What happened?

Cavan Fabris: [00:33:14] Well, you know, I had um, I had a five year commitment. That five year commitment came to an end. I think the idea was to return to to the private sector. Um, I had done my my bit, so to speak. The question is, what to do? Um, the my kids have been educated largely in English, and when I say English, I mean British curriculums around the world up to this point. Um, London had always been sort of a second home for us whenever we had been abroad. Um, we would always been drawn to to wanting to spend some time here. My wife and I also spent some time here before kids as well. In the late 90s, early 2000, and it was maybe just the thought that it was time to give give London a go. Um, at this point in time, I kind of needed a break. I'd been going full out for a while now, and I wanted a transition that wasn't so sharp from the public sector back into the private sector. Um, so I, I put myself through school again. So I went and did a master's in in Bristol at Bristol Uni. Um, which allowed me to renew my passion again for, for privacy and cyber. So I focused specifically on privacy and cyber during my, my master's in Bristol, specifically focusing on that time which was cross border data transfers pre Schrems two. So that was a great year for me to you know get my head screwed back on straight and allowed me to make a really good transition back into the private sector.

Anthony Brown: [00:35:07] And of course, this is the year before GDPR came into play as well. So it's again, funny timing, isn't it, how all these things kind of work out in someone's career.

Cavan Fabris: [00:35:19] Timing is a funny thing, Anthony. It's you know, I don't think anything in life is all that linear. It's not life isn't also, in my opinion, all that predictable. Um, life tests you to roll with the punches based upon what you're given, and you do your best to make something positive out of out of what you're given. I've been given a bunch of circumstances in my life, and I've tried to make the best out of each one of them. Some of them have worked, some of them haven't. And you learn from each one. Um, but yeah, I think the timing of deciding to go back to school, deciding to give myself a little bit of a break to recharge the batteries was the right thing to do at that point in time. It allowed me to position myself for what was going to come next.

Anthony Brown: [00:36:06] Yeah. Brilliant. And you then. So you then joined DIY, is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

Cavan Fabris: [00:36:13] Well, I needed to put some. I needed to try to at least help, you know, put some money and food on the table while I was doing my LLM. Um, so I part time did some work for a boutique legal services firm, and that got me involved in doing some great GDPR prep work and a bunch of other things. Telecom support, um, at a seasoned level. Um, and then right as I was about to finish my dissertation for my master's approached me with an opportunity to come in and help them build out their data privacy and cyber function for law here in the UK.

Anthony Brown: [00:36:57] Amazing. Amazing and and so so it was first your first foray into into big for obviously we probably best that we don't sort of um albeit I'm sure and I know it's a very positive experience. It might be better to talk about more about your present day. And you you made a move to Deloitte. You were a partner at Deloitte. So you you head the firm's data privacy, cybersecurity and telecoms practice. What drew what actually drew you to Deloitte?

Cavan Fabris: [00:37:26] Um, I think two things drew me to Deloitte. One is that they made Deloitte legal, made a commitment to to tech and to tech law through its acquisition of Kemp Little, which was about a year or so before I joined. That showed me that here was an organisation that was putting tech and advising on tech issues at the heart of its organisation, and that was something that was particularly exciting to me. Um, you know, that focus away from maybe the traditional aspects of the law and more of a focus on, on, on where big four has its sweet spot, which I think tech is, is a big part of. So I think that was that was part of it. Um, second part was the ability to, to really take over and build a practice, um, that that was really not available to me elsewhere and that ability to come in and build a data privacy cyber practice that's focused on a combination of delivering service solutions. So, you know, not necessarily bespoke traditional pieces of legal advice, but actually scalable, deliverable solutions that that we sell on an annual basis, combined with subject matter expertise in privacy and cyber, which is something that I'd wanted to do for for some time, which was, I think, a niche within the legal services market that had yet to really be exploited. And Deloitte was very supportive in giving me that opportunity.

Anthony Brown: [00:39:05] Fantastic. And I know from conversations previously, I think you've got is it a team in Poland as well, you know, dotted internationally? Yeah.

Cavan Fabris: [00:39:14] Um, my, my practice is very global. We in Deloitte Legal UK have a team in Poland that are part of our wider UK team and they are specifically tasked with delivering managed services in a legal environment. So we do everything from the likes of contract lifecycle management, e-discovery, things along those lines. But I also am building a privacy and cyber function as well there too, so that when we scale for our clients, we can do so in a in a structured manner through this team in Poland. Because not every solution requires an expensive London based lawyer to address. And clients today are looking for efficiency. And and we can deliver that efficiency today by by doing a lot of the work in Poland and utilizing subject matter expertise when when necessary, and therefore deliver our clients scalable solutions that that are efficient and cost effective at the same time.

Anthony Brown: [00:40:20] Excellent. And so as we've discussed Karen today, you you know, you've you've you've sounds to me like you dreamt big from an early age. Um, you know, you've these opportunities have come along and you've, you've embraced them and grasped them with both hands. Um, you know, you've always looked outside of, you know, the box, that cliche, but you've always looked further afield and you've always been horizon scanning. Um, what part for you in your career, if any, have mentors played for you? Is there any one that you remember? Um, that was a real mentor to you?

Cavan Fabris: [00:41:01] Oh, wow. I've had a lot of good work mentors along the way, and I think if I take maybe away the mentor aspect of it, because unfortunately, when you do move around a lot, the ability to build mentors or long term friendships becomes more and more difficult as as you're no longer next door or in front of those people that you'd like to socialise with more. I think I'm more a product of my experiences, Anthony, and I think it's I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by different types of people, different types of leaders, different types of leadership, um, different ways of working. And I think through that exposure to different things, you find what works for you. You find what you find that every situation requires maybe a specialised answer when it comes to leadership and mentoring. It's not a one size fits all approach. And I think by being exposed and making plenty of mistakes along the way, you realise that what works and what doesn't work. And I think maybe lockdown was probably a good explanation of all of this, in which you're taken away from traditional office environments, which for me are very important because I enjoy being around others and learning from others and communicating with others, that communicating through the medium of zoom or teams just doesn't replace. So there was a period of time in which I missed that level of of interaction, that level of mentorship. Um, but I think it's made me become a little bit more empathetic in the process, a bit more of an active listener. I wish I could draw on just one person or two people. I can't. I draw upon the positives and negatives of every boss that I've ever had, every coworker and every friend that I've been lucky enough to have along the way.

Anthony Brown: [00:43:15] And also notably your family as well. If we go back to that period when you were sort of 30 ish, it sounds like they played a huge part in, you know, in your second career, if you like, in the future.

Cavan Fabris: [00:43:28] So and I can't thank or appreciate that enough. I wouldn't be able to do anything that I'm doing today if it wasn't for, for them. Um, and I'm 100% driven by by that. Um, maybe it's a little bit of guilt, but at the same time, it's also a little bit of trying to be thankful at the same time. Um, but yeah, I don't think anybody can get anywhere alone. And I think that's part of it is that you've got to you've got to surround yourself by the by the positive influences and needed for you to, to succeed. And that may be different for each one of us. But it's important that in the very negative world in which we live in that we try to surround ourselves, in my opinion, with as much positivity as we can.

Anthony Brown: [00:44:21] Well, that's kind of answers what my next question was going to be, in a funny way, because I was going to ask you, what's the biggest piece of advice that you'd give to someone who's starting their career journey now? Um, I think you just kind of condensed it there quite nicely, but it sounds like positivity is a huge thing for you.

Cavan Fabris: [00:44:39] It is. And to be honest, I may not always be the most positive person because I, you know, like many others, you know, get frustrated. I'm impatient. I want things to move faster than they do. And you're human and I'm human simply. But I think if I'm if I'm going to give any, you know, lawyers or anybody else a bit of advice, it would be don't be afraid to embrace an opportunity. Um, it may not be everything that you hope it to be, or it could be more, but you may regret not taking the chance on yourself in the first place. Um, lawyers are taught to be risk averse. They're not necessarily taught to bet on themselves. Uh, bet on yourself. You've got to bet on yourself. And if you can bet on yourself and have the support that you need to get you through the day, when you choose to bet on yourself, when you've had a bad day, when you really don't feel like betting on yourself. Um, surround yourself with others who can, can, can pull you up. And through that combination you'll find your way. The the world isn't linear. Um, there's no guarantees in any of all of this. The only guarantee is what you bring of yourself every day. Um, and to be honest, for most of us, we need a little help with that because we can't do it on.

Anthony Brown: [00:46:06] Excellent advice. Thank you Cavan for a bit of fun. And just to wrap things up, who would be your two ultimate dinner guests?

Cavan Fabris: [00:46:14] Oh gosh. Um, you can go so many ways on this one, Anthony. You know, I'm going to go back a little bit and try to combine maybe some of my political love and history. I'm a big history buff, and I think I'd love to see what would happen in a room in a conversation between maybe John Kennedy and Vladimir Putin. Wow. Given given today's challenges in Ukraine and the war in Ukraine. Um, you know, I, I'm one of those people who feel that JFK's time on this earth was was far, was cut far too short. Um. And I feel that his. Unique diplomacy at some very crucial times in in in history. Would be very interesting to hear and see how he would address what's happening in Ukraine today.

Anthony Brown: [00:47:26] Well, it's hard to argue with with with those guests. Well, you know, well, you know.

Cavan Fabris: [00:47:32] I could I could pick some others if I wanted to have a much different conversation. You know, there's there's relatives I've never met in my life that I would have loved to meet. Um, there's actors and actresses that I'd love to just understand what they're like off screen. Um, but since we were talking about what drove me, and there's a level of international and a level of politics and and a level of intrigue in what I've done. Um, I thought I'd at least keep it maybe to something in that realm.

Anthony Brown: [00:48:06] Now. That's awesome. Thank you Kevin. Thank you so much. It's been fascinating to hear your story. And I'm sure our listeners will have will will take loads out of that. Um, you know, dream big, spot the opportunities when they come along. Um, life isn't linear and be be positive and work hard and don't be afraid to go back to education as well. Perhaps. Um, but listen, thank you so much again, Kevin, to all our listeners. I hope you enjoyed that and I'll be back soon with another episode. Thanks very much. Thank you.

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